Navigating Major Programmes

SHORMILA: You're listening to navigating major programs, home to the conversations elevating the infrastructure industry. I'm Shormila Chatterjee.
RICCARDO: I'm um, Riccardo Cosentino.
Evgenia: And I'm Evgenia Jilina. And together we press the industry's experts about the complexities of program management, emerging digital trends, and the critical leadership skills required to approach this multi billion dollar project.
RICCARDO: Let's see where the conversation takes.
Evgenia: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of navigating major programs. Hi Riccardo, how are you today?
RICCARDO: Hi, Evgenia. I'm great. How are you?
Evgenia: I'm good, thank you. It's the two of us recording today and we have a very interesting guest. We have Dorit Mason from Translink. But before we get there, I'll get, uh, Dorit to introduce herself. Hi, Dorit.
DORIT: Hello there. Thank you very much for the opportunity to come here. I'm looking very forward to providing you some insight on how we prepared for a feat, FIFA actually as a local and regional transportation entity.
Evgenia: And that truly piqued my attention. Obviously FIFA is over. It was a major sporting event in Canada in major cities. And then Dorit and I connected over a couple of conversation around FIFA. But before we get into that major program, I'd love to know, Dorit, a little bit about your background because I don't think it's related to soccer or FIFA. Uh, tell us a little bit more about yourself.
DORIT: Well, I actually have a background in safety, environment and emergency management. And I have been primarily a public servant my whole life. Um, serving the public is quite important to me. So I've worked in post secondary insurance with, uh, the Insurance Corporation of B.C. and then in a lot of local governments. So the city of Coquitlam as well as the three north shore municipalities where I was their director of emergency management for the city of North Van, district of North Van, district of West Van. And so I've had safety, environment, emergency management throughout my career. It's been a very interesting journey.
Evgenia: And to clarify there, emergency management does not typically involve major sporting events. Is that right or is that typically the scope as well?
DORIT: Well, emergency planning, you need to plan for any change that could be a hazard Or a risk your organization. And so a, uh, major sporting event like FIFA changes what you need to deliver, how you have to prepare for it and say, in case something goes sideways and then how you actually deliver that. And while I was at the North Shore Emergency Management Office, I actually also planned and we delivered the 2010 Olympics. So I have some background with, uh, supporting organizations in delivering safe, secure games of types.
Evgenia: Uh-huh. Very relevant experience. It's not often that we get, uh, events of that scale in Vancouver, but we've hit the major ones over the last 20 years, which is super exciting. FIFA is quite different from many major programs, but it is a major program because one thing that is common for any major program event is that the opening date is not going to change. So the day X is basically becomes your guiding principle for a number of years, months. When did the scale of what Translink needed to prepare for became real for you? Kind of. When did you get involved with defining what the FIFA program is going to look like and how long did it take?
DORIT: Well, as soon as Vancouver was, um, successful to become a host city, it was, became on our radar. And so there was, um, some work that was done by another individual really looking at contract work, like the contracts and how we actually integrate. But as soon as we were getting closer to the event and now we have to deliver and how do we plan for that? Uh, probably a couple years out from that end, you know, the, the start date or the end date of your planning. And you're absolutely right, you cannot change the date of fe, FIFA or the Olympics or let's say even a Taylor Swift tour. You can't change it. It's coming and you better be ready for that time.
RICCARDO: It almost makes it easier though. You don't have an out.
DORIT: That's correct. And everyone realizes that they need to align. And so I think that's one of the things. Even with major projects, you actually have to have everyone aligned to that date or that vision of what you're actually going to implement. And if you don't have that, then you're undermining each other and you actually cannot deliver. So it is a matter of gaining the momentum, the alignment within your organization and with other external partners as well.
Evgenia: Walk us through a little bit what goes on behind the scenes, because I think most of us have lived through FIFA or any major sporting event as, ah, a, you know, a person who's taking the transit or lives in the city. Uh, not many people, but yet probably a lot of people, um, were part of the Defining, you know, what we need to do to make this happen. Walk us through behind the scenes. What did Translink need it to do and kind of what stakeholders did you have to work with?
DORIT: Well, the first thing is to know what our purpose is and our role during FIFA is, uh, was to deliver safe, secure and reliable transportation, world class service like we always do for the fans and also the regular commuters. So we had to make sure that we maintained the services that we actually provided. So that's the first thing is really figuring out uh, what is that end point. And as you said Riccardo, that end date is great because you must complete it by that point and then it's really becoming a team and understanding what are the big buckets and how do you communicate this. So yes, you have that vision where you're, where you have to deliver by, but how can you organize the project so that it is meaningful for the rest of the people that aren't actually in, you know, deep into that project? And so what we ended up doing is creating four buckets. And so on one hand I could say we're dealing with transit service, we're dealing with safety and security, we're dealing with communications and then there's some logistics stuff that ends up happening behind there. And so that continuing to have those buckets and communicate that to our internal teams was really important.
Evgenia: And ah, it wasn't just Translink's responsibility. Assuming you had kind of, what's that organization? What, what did that program delivery organization look like at a, at a high level?
DORIT: The city of Vancouver was the host city. So they had the, the relationship with FIFA itself. And we were not a partner with FIFA, we actually had a relationship with the city of Vancouver. So the city of Vancouver as the host city was uh, working with FIFA to figure out what was required. And part of that was the delivery of transit services. So they then took that and we communicated with them and identified how we were actually going to deliver that.
Evgenia: Were there any specific interfaces that you were worried about the most? Uh, between transportation, security, visitors?
DORIT: Yeah, there was a number of different touch points. So the contract negotiations between the City of Vancouver and TransLink and through them to FIFA. But we also have uh, connections in the security world. So we're really lucky. We are the only Canadian transportation, uh, public transportation agency that has our own transit police and uh, we are incredibly lucky for that. So they had insight into the security world. They had touch bases with all of the policing agencies, the rcmp, um, other security agencies as required. So touch points there, touch points between, uh, our communications people and the communications people with city, uh, of Vancouver or other entities. Touch points with how do we connect when a traveler is coming from one area to another, how do you connect? How do you create wayfinding? So lots of touch points with destination bc, destination Vancouver, uh, working with the airport to say, how are we going to help people that have never been on our system before may only be here for a few days to come and watch a match and how do they actually traverse through our system safely and have a great experience with that?
Evgenia: That's definitely a unique vantage point that Translink has with its own transit police. Emergency management is built kind of around preparing for situations where you don't know or you don't have the perfect information. Right. How does that change the way you plan compared to maybe a conventional project management approach or program management approach of this scale? Is it kind of working through different, you know, case studies or other experience of similar, similar type? What did it mean for you?
DORIT: In British Columbia, all local governments, uh, Translink, the provincial government, follows the BC emergency management system structure. And so that actually gives us an overview of how we need to respond to an emergency. It's based on the incident command system, very structured, uh, enables us to not forget things when we have an emergency. And so working as we were planning for that, we know that that's the structure that we're going to use during the event. But what leads us up to that safe and secure games or matches that end up happening was understanding the hazards and risks. So we have identified hazards and risks such as snowstorms, earthquakes, pandemics, uh, you know, an infrastructure failure or a motor vehicle accident. Those can all impact us. How we respond is the same throughout because we have that structure, the emergency management structure. But to prepare our teams, what's the kind of training and exercises that are actually needed? So you have to have plans in place, project plans as well. Right. Uh, and with this being a timeline, we had to make sure that we were actually creating the scenarios that we were developing, conducting the training and delivering on that date that was set in stone. So we actually had to identify those, those risks specific around the games and then train plan or exercise. We worked together with the city of Vancouver. They actually facilitated a number of significant exercises that we participated in and then, uh, that got us ready for delivery.
Evgenia: Obviously very complicated, obviously lots of moving pieces. I would think that a lot of teams are probably learning as they go because events of this scale, it don't happen that often. So in terms of knowledge, you Know, it's, it's probably a, a little bit limited. Tell me a little bit how, just kind of zooming out. Considering your background and how you got into this space, you know, there's a obvious connection with emergency management and how that applies to major events and program management. What other kind of career paths would you say are relevant to, you know, if somebody wanted to be maybe associated with complex program delivery, complex program management in the context of major events? Anything interesting kind of stood out to you in terms of what you saw? Um, different career path, different backgrounds of people that you've worked with, um, as part of this program.
DORIT: When I first started in this career, it was primarily retired police, fire and other first responders that were in this role. And now there is a. Through, uh, post secondary. There are some pathways that you can end up going. The one thing is, if you come out of, let's say, a post secondary institution, you've got the knowledge, but you don't have the experience. And so gaining that experience is actually quite important. I will not get us there. You actually need to have that experience as you go forward. And people that are coming into this field are coming from different areas. Uh, somebody that might be in the safety realm goes, okay, well, I have to respond to emergencies during a safety incident. Well, what's the next step if I wanted to get into that, um, area? And then again, we're not going to have another FIFA for probably another 10 years or so. Uh, so gives people some time if they want to get into the field.
Evgenia: Yeah, that's true.
RICCARDO: All right, if I can jump in, I mean, you have the type of job where if you do your job properly, nobody knows that you have a job.
DORIT: Correct.
RICCARDO: How does that feel?
DORIT: So I would say it's almost like insurance. So you have to pay for this, but you don't see the benefits unless you know something happens. And so it is always a struggle to say, let's invest in emergency management because the best thing that happens is nothing. So how do you create KPI around not having any events? And was it because we planned so well? We were really lucky. We had no major significant incidents that occurred, but we had more frontline staff. We were prepared for any event that could happen. To respond quickly to that.
RICCARDO: Yeah, because also, I mean, not only you plan, but then also if you. So if you plan well, accident incident might not happen. If they do happen, if you have planned well, you can respond to that quite effectively and reduce the impact. And so the more successful you are, the least people will know.
DORIT: Correct.
RICCARDO: About this.
DORIT: Correct. And they'll have a great experience and they'll go, wow, it was so smooth, so seamless. And yet behind the scenes we had, during FIFA, we activated what's called our emergency Coordination center. We were ready to go and we were activated the whole 39 days in case something did go sideways.
Evgenia: The things you don't know about unless something goes wrong. What is, uh, I'm curious now, the emergency response, uh, center. So that's for any major event. Uh, that's for kind of as part of the city, uh, operations, City management.
DORIT: Well, so each local government will have their own, what's called an emergency operations center. So, um, and you'll see that in many large organizations as well, they have an emergency, uh, operations center. And that brings together decision makers to help, um, respond when something goes wrong. And by doing that in a coordinated fashion, using again, that BC emergency management system as the basis, enables you to respond to safety is always number one. You know, make sure the safety of responders and the people that are impacted and really come back more quickly and, uh, safely after an emergency. At Translink, we have, We've called it, We've tweaked the name because it's the Emergency Coordination center. Because we have multiple companies. So the bus company, the rail company, transit police, they operate their own operations. And so we expect them to do their own operations. And then we bring the information together at our coordination center and make sure that they're getting the support and we're aligned as an enterprise, as a Translink as a whole.
Evgenia: Has anything surprised you, um, now that you can hopefully let a big breath out and kind of put this experience behind you? Has anything surprised you once FIFA actually started or once it has finished?
DORIT: Ah, no surprises. Uh, these events, actually, as I'd mentioned before, they really align with the entr, like they align the organizations. And so we had that deadline and it became a priority. So when you have a major project with a deadline, if you can get everyone going in the same path, they will make decisions to support your project because it has a time element, it is a critical element versus if you're not, uh, aligned sometimes you're not always supported. And anytime I needed something to focus our FIFA planning, everyone was on side. And that was fantastic. If you can create that kind of energy and, um, alignment throughout any project that really is helpful,
Evgenia: how do you think we can do that? Because we are all trying to do that on every project that we work on. What has worked for you or what have you seen that worked? Well, maybe not just in the context of FIFA, but as you know, you've worked on, I'm sure, numerous programs throughout your career. What have you seen work successfully in terms of bringing people together on the same page?
DORIT: I believe it comes from first understanding why this project is important and then aligning that with each of the different parts of the organization and showing what they contribute to that. If they don't understand then why would they participate? Why would they support? Also comes from leadership saying this is a priority. So hopefully when you have those major projects there is a, uh, leadership helping to define that vision. It is critical for the organization. It's a lot of influence and trying to make uh, people understand what their role is to deliver that project, why they are important.
RICCARDO: Dorit I mean, working with FIFA, Obviously FIFA is a large organization. They do these events every four years. So they must have some, some good knowledge of, you know, what they expect host city to provide in terms of emergency management, in terms of preparedness. Working for this large project with FIFA, uh, as do you think the organization was able to pick up some new best practices that maybe FIFA, uh, introduced collaboration when we're collaborating with Translink or other organization?
DORIT: I would say no actually, because we are actually very mature here in British Columbia preparing for major um, events and uh, emergency response. Again, our experience with FIFA was through the host city and so they had some very uh, important expectations and delivery requirements. It was that interaction and the relationships that we have and grew and uh, nurtured through the FIFA planning with the city of Vancouver, with uh, other response agencies that really continue to solidify that we've done this kind of a large event before. As I'd mentioned, 2010 Olympics. You know, it comes down to relationships, strengthening those, creating those. So I would say, uh, we did really well. And it wasn't with hand holding from FIFA, the FIFA organization. It was really building on what we have already established here and just being more intense during the FIFA lead up.
Evgenia: This program involved a lot of people within TransLink. Outside of TransLink, I happened to connect to a few people that kind of worked on the periphery around program management, uh, for some of the facilities. And they were kind of doing the lessons learned and debrief and it was all very positive. But my main takeaway from that, you know, it was a lunch and learn essentially was the emotion behind it. The project manager that was kind of walking through what the team has experienced and what they've seen was the emotion associated with a major event. A major soccer event obviously has lots of fans, obviously lots of young, um, soccer fans. I think the story she brought up was how they witnessed a little bit of the unexpected angle was how the kids started gathering at some of the training facilities as the players were arriving, just to take, you know, to catch the glimpse of the players, um, and that kind of created a little bit of unexpected crowd that they had to manage. Um, any highlights for you kind of that stood out that you maybe, you know, obviously your job is to, uh, anticipate anything, but anything kind of stood out, um, as the program rolled out, or anything that was touching or extra emotional for you?
DORIT: I think the joy of, um, delivering this and seeing the excitement, uh, during the fan marches, for example, during the Canada match, was absolutely fantastic. All the vibe that was downtown, um, was incredible. Uh, was it unexpected? Probably not, but there was more people than we anticipated. And yet then also having to deliver that, uh, service to move those people afterwards. And just the great work that frontline staff did to make it safe for people to use our system. And then I would also say the, uh, internal staff were excited, so making sure that internal staff that didn't have direct connections with the FIFA planning or the FIFA delivery still got some excitement around the matches.
RICCARDO: I have an hypothetical. Vancouver was never a destination for the tartan army, the Scottish fan. But how would you have dealt with the tartan army if it had showed up in Vancouver?
DORIT: Well, I could tell you that we had really strong security plans. And, um, again, we are so lucky to have our own transit police. And, and the planning, and the scenario planning that went out, uh, around with the security side was extensive. And so they were ready to respond to any threat that could have occurred in our system or the threat that something might happen.
Evgenia: Okay, so interesting. It's like thinking about all these different scenarios and hypothetical scenarios and how do you think about these things? Do you envision, uh, these scenarios and kind of how it can go, or do you use, um, a model, a spreadsheet? I'm just curious what goes through your head as you kind of go through this risk register of what ifs and how to deal with it.
DORIT: Well, the issue with emergencies is you want to plan. You can't plan for everything. So again, having that structure on how you respond is critical because it doesn't matter what emergency ends up happening. So again, that's kind of like your project management structure and charter, et cetera. So we may not have planned for a, uh, tornado, but we've had a tornado. So how did we respond? The operating companies did their work, and then we made sure at the enterprise level, that response was coordinated. So again, um, having some top hazards that we've planned for. And it's probably the same thing that, uh, project managers do. You know, what if. What if we've got a delay in schedule? What if we've got a major rainstorm and we were supposed to be digging and now the walls are failing? So it is a little bit of, um, imagination sometimes, but also identifying. Okay, well, rainstorms are more important to us here than. And I said tornadoes. We don't have them very often, but, you know, I store.
Evgenia: Right. Yeah.
DORIT: Although, you know, 2 millimeters of snow in Vancouver causes a storm.
Evgenia: Oh, Riccardo knows all about it.
RICCARDO: Yes.
Evgenia: And the impact on the rail tracks.
RICCARDO: Yeah.
Evgenia: Yeah. Okay. Well, maybe, um, we pivot here a little bit. Um, in terms of other, uh, programs, emergency management programs or other programs that you're working on, is there anything that you would like, uh, to share or kind of talk to us about?
DORIT: Well, um, safety is always, number one. Even when you have an emergency, the safety of responders is paramount. So keeping in mind that you should never send a responder into a situation which is beyond the safety that their normal organization faces. Right. You would not send an engineer into a situation where a police member might be part of their job. So safety is number one. Always thinking about that is critical. And so when you're designing projects or when you're implementing projects, where is safety on the priorities of that project? How are you ensuring the safety of the workers? If you've got a prime contractor situation, multiple employers in a workplace, how are you ensuring that we don't have issues around physical safety or even psychological safety? So if I could kind of in, you know, get, uh, your listeners to think about that. And then the other piece, uh, I also have the environment portfolio. And it's really, if this spill happens, how do we protect, uh, the workers or the people around there? The environment? How do we prevent contaminated sites from happening? So really, incorporating those scenarios into project plans is important. Understanding the protocols and guidelines and, um, response that will happen.
Evgenia: Yeah. And kind of what you're touching on, I think connects with overall operational readiness for any sort of capital program or service program. Based on your experience, maybe talk to us what you've seen in terms of successful integration, successful understanding of this, um, and goal that is often not tangible because maybe the project is not built or, you know, the event hasn't happened, or, you know, the project hasn't been delivered. What goes like, what should we be thinking and how should we be thinking with that operational mindset in mind, maybe for people that don't work in operations, but they have to deliver projects for operations or for uh, entities that operate infrastructure.
DORIT: So as I said before, the safety, the emergency management, the environment, incorporating that through the project phase is important when we look at FIFA. It was my planning phase. And then you have implementation or your response phase or your, you know, you've delivered the product to the operator. They have to ensure safety, emergency management, security, environment, and they have to operate that. So as the projects go forward, what is their experience that they need to uh, enable them to deliver properly? And I would say project managers need to step outside of their project management hat and go, if I were the operator, what does this mean for me and uh, you know, understanding from them, if I'm delivering a bridge, who's the, the operator and a maintenance person, uh, you know, or, or a skytrain, how are they going to actually operate and maintain this? Because that might change your decisions during your project management phases. So they can't. I know they're different buckets. But it's really important that the project managers think of it in the uh, operator's mindset, what their experience will be and that might influence how they do things.
Evgenia: Do you think it should be a requirement for project managers to have some sort of experience with operations or just kind of having that general awareness and eagerness and curiosity to, to understand is enough?
DORIT: I don't know if we'd ever be able to say, you must have that experience.
Evgenia: It's hard to get that experience.
DORIT: Yeah. So I would say if the project manager can actually meet with the people that are going to get what they are building and say, tell me your world or even, you know, go for a tour on their system so that they can understand and the more tangible knowledge they have, the better the product will be and the happier the operators will be because they've, you know, had some of their needs considered and doing those touch bases regularly as well I think would be really good.
Evgenia: That's actually a very valuable piece of advice. I mean, you think it's common sense to understand your client and to understand the, the operator, but, uh, I think for anyone who may be curious but maybe shy or afraid to ask for a tour or extra, you know, level to gain that extra level of understanding, I think it's a very valuable piece of advice. Thanks for sharing that.
RICCARDO: Let me jump in because I was just refreshing my memories. I've been working in the UK for a while, in my youth in the uk they actually have these Construction, design and management regulations, where in the built environment, if you're designing and building something in the built environment, you actually have uh, a legal obligation to make sure you incorporate management practices into the design. And the classic example I remember, I mean the regulation was revised in 2015, but it's been around for 30 years. As I remember, if you're designing a building, let's say you're designing a structure all in glass and there is no way to actually clean that structure, or there's not a good way of cleaning that structure. And one of the workers, the maintenance worker, get injured in that operation, the designer, the architect, as a liability towards that worker. So there is actually a legal requirement for architects and engineers to actually consider how you, the maintainability of, of the asset that design and build. And uh, I think that's, you know, I always remember the, uh, I mean, I'm old enough that I remember that the cement bag of cement in Europe used to be 50 kilos. And then they realized that a human, a person, a man or a woman can only live 20 comfortably. And so they actually redesigned the bag of cement to be more manageable and create less impact and damage to the humans handling that. Right. And that's all part of understanding the operation and incorporating that understanding in everything that we do.
DORIT: Makes sense. Actually.
RICCARDO: I was going to take you, um, more personal. Personal related to your job, but maybe a little bit personal. I mean, maybe I'm completely wrong, but like I think maybe in your field, dealing with FIFA, dealing with the Olympics, is that like a pinnacle of the type of projects? And if it is, how do you then, uh, maybe if those are not the one, but you had experience on what you believe are pinnacles of your profession, how do you manage working on less glamorous or marquee project? How do you, how do you go back to a normal project after you worked on FIFA and Olympics?
DORIT: Yeah, they are like, they don't come very often. So certainly from a, uh, planning and then delivery, it's quite a big deal. You're tired afterwards. It's like any project manager that delivers a major project, you're exhausted at the end of it. You know, those were planned events, but I've also responded to actual emergencies. And when people lose their lives or their houses, that's pretty traumatic as well. And you're doing what you can to support, uh, people from when an emergency has struck. So not as world class, uh, but you're dealing with people and their lives. And so that response comes when it comes. You don't Actually, you know, you prepare for winter weather, during winter weather, but you never know if it's going to be a lot of snow this year or no snow. So I think there's value, even though that was a big project, uh, like somebody building a bridge. Big project. Be proud. Be proud of what you helped deliver. And then you have other really important things, or at least I do, that, uh, serve the public, keep safety, uh, of our employees, of our customers, and, uh, make it a really good experience for them. So, yeah, sometimes you feel a little bit, not. Not let down, tired, and then it's like, okay, what is my job?
Evgenia: Come back to reality of actual emergency management. And actually, you know, a lot of hypothetical work goes into planning, but then when a real emergency strikes, it's a, uh, different level of commitment. I'm sure you talk a lot about resilience, both in terms of projects and programs. What does resilience mean to you personally, both in the context of leadership?
DORIT: Personal it means when things go unexpected, you get back up and you keep going. And sometimes you don't actually know, you know, is this the right decision, but you make a decision. And when people don't make decisions, that also is a decision. If they don't act, they are actually making a decision not to act. And resiliency is personally, it's finding it in yourself to say, wow, that didn't go how I expected. Again, this could be in a project. So let's analyze and let's, uh, uh, figure out how we can move forward and what's the best way. And keeping in mind, okay, safety is number one. What are the other things that are really important? If it's schedule, if it's that timeline, how do we end up meeting that? And then I think the other thing is that we need to own our mistakes. And to be human is to make mistakes and to actually say, it's okay. I, I thought we should do this, and it didn't turn out right. So help me. Help us fix it. Take ownership and just really get back up and going. Because life will continue, those deadlines will continue, and you just need to. To get back at it.
RICCARDO: I'm really curious, Dorit, if you can share what's your proudest moment in your career? Because I have a feeling that you probably seen some really interesting stuff throughout your career. What is the one that stood out that you're most proud that you worked on that particular event, on that particular project?
DORIT: Oh, there's many. When I was at the North Shore. This is kind of sad, but really Heartwarming for me. I responded, um, to an apartment fire where four people died. You know, tragedy and having one of the children of one of the residents reach out and saying thank you for, like, her mother survived. And essentially saying, thank you for taking care of my mom. You know, it's. It is taking care of other people. I wouldn't say anything really sticks out, but just the ability to help people. They've lost their houses, their possessions. So how do you help them? You're there to help them get back up on their feet as best they can at that time. And I would say that, um, email that I got from that person, really, I mean, I still remember, meant a lot to me.
RICCARDO: Oh, thank you for sharing. And I knew when I was asking that question it wasn't going to be FIFA. That's why I asked.
DORIT: Yeah, FIFA and the Olympics were just events, right? Big events, you know, complicated. Just like a big project complicated event. Um, but for me, it is. It's one of what I've been doing my whole life is how do I support society? Even if it's little things,
Evgenia: it's usually the little things that make the most impact. On that personal level that you're describing, being able to have that, you know, personal connection and knowing that you've personally helped with something to another individual is probably the most valuable. As we discuss major programs. But those little things matter the most.
DORIT: But, but if I could say, those connections are critical even for a big project. So if a, uh, project manager takes the time to get to know, Even if it's 15 minutes, getting to know the people that are on their projects, uh, or that are helping to deliver, those people feel like they're people and they want to be involved because they are seen by the project manager or the leader you want to help when somebody sees you. And those connections are so critical. And if you have strong relationships, and this is the same whether it's a project or an emergency, I have strong relationships. And I know when an emergency happens, I am going to be highly stressed. And instead of saying, oh, good morning, Riccardo, would you mind providing this for me? I'm going to say, ricardo, I need this now. And then most people would go, oh, my God, she's so mean. But because we have a relationship beforehand, it's like, wow, that's not like Dorit, I wonder what's going on? And so those relationships are critical in any project, in any emergency response. I would love your. The people that are listening to think about what are those valuable, uh, relationships. And even the ones that I might not think are valuable. It's still important for me to connect to those people.
Evgenia: Absolutely. I love the example that you just made, by the way, because I think it, it's just so real. A lot of the times when we say or we tell people or we say we're going to build a uh, relationship, quote, unquote. It could mean different things to many people the way you do it. But the way you just described it, the, the importance of knowing the bigger picture of that person and understanding, you know, who they are outside of a crisis or outside of the immediate question is so important for that project. Alignment and just, you know, general behavior and feeling on that project and how we work together.
DORIT: And the closer you get to the deadline, the higher the stress, the more people are going, I need this now. Right? And it's like, oh, but that's not under a non stressful situation. I actually have a good relationship with them so I'm going to give them a break because I know them from another time.
RICCARDO: Yeah, it's an investment, right? It's an investment that you, you have to, you have to build that uh, relations so that you can call upon that relation in the moment of need. But if you haven't given like it's give or take, right? You have to give to that relation in order to then take in the moment of crisis. Right? So it's fundamental.
Evgenia: But even to me, what this example meant is that it's not, it's that sure, it's the relationship, but it's also, you know, in that context, giving the benefit of the doubt. Because it's so easy in a conversation, like when you're brought in on the project and you're halfway through and you don't know people very well, you're going to jump to your own conclusions about all the personalities involved. So if you don't have that background, personal level of understanding, it's going to be very easy for you to misjudge the whole project dynamic and think that, oh, this is just the whole project. The whole team is being, you know, they're responsive, uh, they don't really care about building the relationship or the communication. Whereas they may overlook the fact that that takes time to build and it's through, you know, outside conversations and outside, outside connections. It's just, it's funny because I think a lot of the times we think that about relationship building as, oh, um, you know, we need to do a team building activity or a team building exercise or something like that. Whereas it's actually much simpler than that. It's just that human conversation outside the immediate need or emergency that will allow you to build that connection. Uh, so it's just the simplicity of it that I, I, I like.
DORIT: It's being a little bit vulnerable too, and being open, um, open to feedback. We have blind spots, so sometimes we don't know how we're behaving. Being welcoming, you know, welcoming any feedback from people, valuing their input.
Evgenia: Really important, super good advice and so relevant. Um, I just wanted to ask you if, um, kind of what advice would you give to someone who wants to either move into emergency management and safety or broader kind of program execution? If you know our listeners that might be curious about what you do, what advice would you give them?
DORIT: There are courses out there on emergency management and safety. So from an educational perspective that might be something to explore. The other thing is to reach out to people that do these jobs and ask them for 15 minutes of their time, explain to me what you end up doing, how did you get there, understand their journey as well. And, and then, um, not so much on the safety side, but on the emergency management side. There's sometimes volunteer opportunities within local governments that could look at that. But I would love them always, even if they don't get into these fields, always have. Safety is number one. Safety of the workers, safety of the public. Um, anything that you do should always have that as an underlying feature.
RICCARDO: Mhm.
Evgenia: Thank you for that very good advice. Well, thank you again for joining us today. It was a really interesting conversation. Started off, you know, macro major programs, but then we touched on very tangible and human elements of these projects and programs and how it comes together. So thank you Dorit, for joining us today. It was, uh, it was a pleasure to have you.
DORIT: Thank you. I wish you all well.
Evgenia: Thank you.
RICCARDO: Thank you Dorit. Bye now.
Evgenia: That's it for this episode of Navigating Major Programs. If you enjoyed the conversation, please follow the show and consider leaving a review. To continue elevating the conversation, join us on the navigating major program's LinkedIn page. I'm Evgenia Jilina um, alongside Riccardo Cosentino and Shormila Chatterjee. Thank you for listening.