Navigating Major Programmes

RICCARDO: In a small project, medium sized project, you got your subs, you got your partners, and you can sort of manage those relation in a certain way. When you go to mega project, the interaction, the interdependencies are so much more accentuated that you need a completely different set of skills. And so, yes, your leadership becomes more important because you have to manage by influence. You have to lead by influence. You're listening to Navigating Major Programs, home to the conversation elevating the infrastructure industry. I'm Riccardo Cosentino.
EVGENIA: And I'm Evgenia Jilina.
SHORMILA: And I'm Shormila Chatterjee. And together we'll press the industry's experts on the complexity of megaproject management, emerging artificial intelligence, and the critical leadership required to approach these multi billion dollar projects. Let's see where the conversation takes us.
RICCARDO: Hello everyone. Welcome to a new episode of Navigating Major Programs. How are you doing, Evgenia?
EVGENIA: Hello, Riccardo. Nice to be here. Hello everybody.
RICCARDO: We haven't done one together in a while, so this, this is nice. Uh, we're missing Shormila. We're missing Shormila today.
EVGENIA: And last time we did this, we had a more, uh, of an interview because I was a guest on a podcast for the first time. And this time we're, uh, more or less equals.
RICCARDO: We're co hosting with like, this is our show. This is our show now. Well, let's start there. Uh, has it been, been a course? I mean, I, I didn't, I lost track. But like you've done, you now recorded probably six or seven of your own podcasts.
EVGENIA: I am not keeping count. I should, but yes, I have. It's been terrifying and exciting and interesting and everything in between. Um, I can totally relate to. I think Shormila said this a few times on the podcast, that hearing your own voice is like another level of uncomfortable and personal awareness that you didn't think you had in you. But anyways, I'm leaning in. It's been really fun. I realized that having the ability to reach out to people, to have a conversation on a topic that I personally care about and I hope our audience cares about. Um, it's a very powerful, powerful, uh, tool to just, you know, engage with people and also put out thoughts and ideas. How do you feel about podcasting? You've been doing this way longer than me.
RICCARDO: Yeah, well, first of all, I didn't know it was going to last this long, but yeah, almost, uh, you know, halfway through season is four. No, it must be more than 100 episodes. So, yeah, I mean, it's being very interesting. Like you, I really, uh, enjoy the conversations. I enjoy how I'm growing my network by having these conversations. The nerve wracking part was gone. Like, I can now, literally, yeah, I can now show up in front of the mic and it's in. And in fact, that was one of the objective was like to conquer that fear of public speaking. So that mission accomplished there, I mean, is definitely much easier now. We were just talking about listening to your voice, uh, because I used to listen to every single episode before putting it out. Uh, I had to listen to my voice a lot. So I'm now completely comfortable with, with that. So that's, that's been great. But now the conversations, right, the conversations and to top it, the guests and getting, you know, getting to meet new people, getting to understand their journey. It's been great. And now more comfortable. You know, I think just, just this. Right? I mean, I always wanted to bring guests because I had this imposter syndrome which was like, nobody wants to hear from me. So I need to bring a guest because the guest is gonna, is gonna uh, basically make the show. Now I'm very comfortable in, you know, I can, me and you, you can be the show. Right. We don't, we are good enough and what we can add to the conversation is good enough that I'm not there yet.
EVGENIA: Maybe when I'll do 50 episodes. I feel the same way. For me, I mean, it's, um, maybe tacky to say I'm in a way following your footsteps here a little bit on the imposter syndrome side, because I think it's exactly that for me as well. Part of me looks at it as well, what do I have to bring to this conversation? I better prepare and ask some questions. Thankfully, I'm also genuinely interested in, in the topics and the people that I get to interview. But it's. Yeah, it's a big element. But maybe that's the, uh, maybe that's the learning.
RICCARDO: Maybe that's the less the growth that. Listen, you know, you have to reflect. I mean, how many, how long have you been in this industry?
EVGENIA: Like 15 years.
RICCARDO: Right? So you do have, you have learned something and you do have something to say. Right? Right. So I, I guess there's been like, my confidence has grown to a point where it's like, yeah, I mean, maybe people, maybe I can go on a podcast and be interviewed or like being the person that, you know, brings a subject matter expertise. Three years ago, that was impossible for me to comprehend. Like, uh, there's no way I can, I can be the show. The guest has to be the show.
EVGENIA: Interesting. What I also realized through doing this podcast is that for me so far, again, you know, very fortunate to be able to invite people. So a lot of the topics and a lot of the thoughts that I have, uh, on the topic and the reason why I interview in a way is almost a sense me seeking a sense of validation of my own ideas that I'm not ready to put out as my own yet. And it's been very, very satisfying to hear. You know, the guests kind of validate my train of thought that is sometimes maybe half baked, but they have more knowledge in that. But then also people offline kind of, you know, some of the conversations that spark after our podcast, uh, is exactly that somebody's like, oh, that's exactly, you know, they confirm what we've been saying. So I think we got this ability to also articulate something that people think about but then they don't have the output of putting it out there because nobody, not everybody has a podcast or uh, a blog. So it's a sense of kind of validation. But then what do you do with that? Is it just a conversation or you take it further?
RICCARDO: Yeah, some depends. It can do what can be. It can be either. But you know, I think you just prompt me to say something, you know, m. Maybe this will be a test how many people actually listen to the podcast. But if you want to be on the podcast, if you think you have ideas that you want to share, reach out to me, Evgenia, to Shormila. I think you know where to find us. And if you want to be on, just uh, reach out. I mean this is a platform for the industry and um, everybody can contribute and uh, be more than happy to uh, have you on.
EVGENIA: Absolutely. Yeah. That's so true. And um, people have been reaching out, which is also great to see. Yeah, by all means, reach out to us. We'd love to have you be any.
RICCARDO: Don't feel like an imposter. We, we can if we did it.
EVGENIA: Exactly. We'll do it for you. Yes, we'll do it for you. We'll feel like an imposter. That's true. That's true for me.
RICCARDO: And I've, I've, you know, I've talked a lot about why, why I started a podcast. And um, I think the mission is still true and uh, the way that we're engaging with the industry is, is evolving. So yeah, hopefully we can continue.
EVGENIA: Mhm. Maybe this is kind of a Topic that I often think about as we, I mean we obviously have a lot of choices these days in terms of social media and different platforms and industry events. And you know, there's lots of conversations. For some reason it's still important to me to you know, as I said, have a conversation, but also in some uh, instances do something about it or do something about the idea that comes up in those conversations or a problem. And I mean if we had a huge followership, I think that's where the value is. So true. But then there's this fine line between, you know, big podcasts are typically sponsored. Big podcasts are also typically, you know, they have, they might have some sort of agenda behind them. This is, this is exact opposite. You're very open about the fact that this is a passion project of yours and this is not for profit. Do you think we have what it takes to move the needle on certain things? I mean, I can think of one specific idea, but maybe you have one specific example, but uh, maybe you have experienced more.
RICCARDO: Before I answer, let me actually make another shout out, right? I mean if, if, you know, if there are topics that you want to, want us to cover, if there are things you, you would like to understand as a listener, like, please let us know. Like I've never saw feedback, but you know, let us know if there are particular guests that you would like us to call or um, or topics. Right. So, you know, I've been thinking about, you know, know, scaling, growing, you know and I, I don't think the sponsorship, uh, I mean I don't like the idea of a sponsorship because then the sponsor might have a view on the content. And I, I really wanted, and you know, my pet peeve was the conferences. And you know, I always say it, you know, we all know how those works, right? The sponsor gets a seat at the, at ah, the table. They get a seat as a moderator or as a participant. And so obviously, you know, corporate response are important and then you know, they add, they add their viewpoint. But I think we are missing sometimes the unbiased viewpoints at these, at uh, these conferences. And so this, what this platform was supposed to be. That's why I was reluctant to, I'm reluctant to get sponsors because I don't, I don't want the content to be, to be influenced. But I also, and uh, this is a shout out for people if they have idea. Like, you know, I was thinking like, do I invest more? M. I'm happy to put more money into the podcast, but I couldn't see How I to grow it? Like I tried various marketing, uh, tactics, right. And you know, spending some money on LinkedIn, boosting and trying to see if I can increase, uh, I try cold, cold outreach as well. They don't really go anywhere. So that's why, you know, and I haven't checked how many downloads I get, but you know, I think used to be around 100 per episode, 120. Sometimes it goes to 150, 200 over a couple of weeks. So it's a, you know, 150 to 200 people, uh, a week download this podcast and hopefully most of them listen to it. And I was like, how do I grow and do I need to grow it? I'm happy, I'll be happy to invest more money, but I actually run out of ideas on how do I grow it and do I need to, do we need to. I guess one thing, I mean, let's open the kimono a little bit. One thing that I learned over the years is that the guest is actually what is growing the podcast. So each guest that comes brings new listeners. Some of them stick, some of them don't. And that's how you grow. And I literally, I remember seeing a significant growth in download when I move from like an episode every two weeks to an episode every week. And see, I immediately saw a growth in downloads because now you have a different guest every week with their own friends and family downloading it. And that's really. So the, the guest is...
EVGENIA: brings their own fellowship.
RICCARDO: Yes. And some of them, some of them stay, some of them go, some of them stay, uh, some of them stay. So that, but the question was can we make an impact? You know, 150 people a week, probably most of them the same, uh, most of them repeat listeners. So we're not reaching a wide, wide audience.
EVGENIA: Mhm. Yeah. And is it possible to do without, you know, significant partnerships or investment? That's tbd. But I do think the podcast was able. So when I started listening to the podcast, um, you know, a few years ago, it was, to me it was a lot of kind of category creation and compartmentalizing. A lot of the problems that you would hear, I would hear about in the industry on projects just around, but they were never truly discussed at length. It was something always that you hear from, you know, the podium at a conference or as uh, an abstract or an article, but it never had any legs. I think the wider, broader, longer conversation on the topic is giving it validation that yes, it's true, it's a problem, it's an idea. It's something. But yeah, I think, I think it is definitely someone like me again who was, is uh, a listener and who benefited from learning about a lot of these topics that again I heard about but I didn't have the depth of knowledge. Definitely helped me and I hope that for me at least that's why I wanted to also be in um, on the podcast as a co host is to broaden our audience to maybe a different cohort of people kind of like me and maybe earlier in their careers to give them these specific. Because you learn about concepts, you learn about these problems. But then the way the podcast talks about it is very applicable to these specific projects that we work on and you know, infrastructure major projects. So it's less theoretical like you know, any other project management, program management podcast. It's very specific to this industry which I like.
RICCARDO: Look, I know, I mean I know people find it interesting, uh approached and told that this is helpful. So maybe you know, I'm overly critical but maybe it is making an impact. I uh, think we talked about you know, the major Project Leadership Academy, uh, initiative in Canada. So that that was uh, you know, something that, yeah, I was passionate that I chipped in and I think it was a conversation that started it literally with uh, whole movement.
EVGENIA: It started a whole.
RICCARDO: Yeah, you know it's funny because it's
EVGENIA: really got people behind it.
RICCARDO: Before we press recorded that you were saying my contribution. I actually feel guilty that I'm not contributing as much because I, I got super busy and I can't, I can't support it the way I wanted to.
EVGENIA: This, this is the imposter syndrome comes back up recording. No. For our listeners. Can we just acknowledge the sheer fact that this original host of this podcast was the idea, uh, behind something very, very important, almost life changing for industry, which is the idea which is not an idea anymore. Um, Major Projects Leadership Academy, Canadian Major Projects Leadership Academy. Um, a concept that Riccardo came up with and Matti. But then you had a conversation with Maddie that resulted in you know, further conversations. You came on a podcast that gained some traction and further idea, uh, support, interest. And then you know we used uh, you guys used the think tank channels such as the Future of Infrastructure group and other people, you know, members part of that. And now it's going to be a program part of the Rotman School of Business, University of Toronto. I mean it's legitimate and that all, you know, took a few years. But here we are. You're, you're. I think this is the most tangible, um, Outcome.
RICCARDO: Yeah, I, I, I, I need to fight the imposter syndrome because, and I, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna go out of character. Is that. Yeah, I mean it was a conversation that started with me, I remember m, Me and Marty on that very first podcast. It was I think very season one, season one. And uh, you know, I bumped into him, I knew him, m. And uh, so we recorded and uh, I think we started talking about, about it after we stopped recording, uh, about this. It was like, oh, I'd like to pick your brain on what you did at Oxford, how that worked. And so we had, you know, with further conversation with another podcast, then we had LA panel and then yeah, I mean, uh, I guess I did play a part.
EVGENIA: I remember that episode that, that sparked my interest big time because I at the time was looking for ways to you know, up uh, my education and career. I was looking at these different programs and I was looking for something that would be very specific to, you know, infrastructure and major projects. And there was not anything that would be relevant. Like I didn't, you know, wasn't looking, wasn't comparing it to an mba, but kind of like executive education. So the idea that I heard back then a few years ago definitely resonated. How amazing would that be? Um, and here we are, what, three years later. Three years later.
RICCARDO: Yeah, I've actually lost a bit of track of what's happening, uh, with that initiative.
EVGENIA: Oh, well, let me update you. We're like part of FIG and we're having regular weekly, bi weekly check ins. Uh, Matti has got his program, he's got the faculty behind it. The Rotman School of Business is behind it. They're mapping out the marketing campaign and he's got all the approvals in place. So now it's very exciting.
RICCARDO: Evgenia, maybe elaborate a bit more what this is.
EVGENIA: So this idea came about. Maybe we can reference the original episode uh, in terms of problem as we, as you identified it. So the problem statement was around how major projects delivery, uh, and major projects management is kind of lacking the industry and the expertise that we currently have kind of lacking very specific skills behind it. And I think the white paper that was written identified, you know, your typical, your typical technical skills that we require of our project leaders. Typically we refer to project directors in the sense or higher that they need to be successful in their jobs. And it's a combination of various technical skills, education, background, all of those very important things. But then another box on the left describes all of these things, all the skills that we like to call soft skills, but we're now calling them social skills and communication skills that we've typically undervalued. And we were unable to really quantify the importance of those skills on major projects. So this program is meant to combine and fill that gap between, you know, your education that you bring and your experience that you bring to major project delivery, paired with today's actual problems and issues that we experience that are typically around, you know, how we manage leadership. It's essentially a combination of leadership and I would say business management, uh, or business operations, um, which is a very specific gap in the profile of many project leaders in today's world. So that program came about as part of your OX or was based on the idea that you've learned at Oxford. Right. And it's based on something that was done in the uk. Maybe you can talk a little bit about that.
RICCARDO: Yeah. So we, we took. So Matt. Mattie Semiatiki, who is professor, um, at University of Toronto, I think he's, uh, he runs the Infrastructure Institute, U of T. And so he basically developed the curriculum. But like we had, you know, obviously I brought my experience from, from, from my Master in Major Program Management. We also talked to the UK government because in the UK they have, you know, you can go to Oxford as a private citizen, pay the fee and get the master degree. But the UK government, through Treasure, through the Treasury Department, they actually put Project Director through the, uh, the equivalent of that Master, but run by Oxford just for the Treasury Department. Right. So they have the major project, uh, Leadership Academy, which is a program just for the, for the, uh, UK public sector to basically get trained. But it is exact same program that you can do, uh, as a, As a private citizen. And so we took that and Mati, uh, obviously adapted it for the Canadian context. I think that was very important to have a Canadian.
EVGENIA: And he consulted a lot with the public and private sectors throughout this. Yeah.
RICCARDO: And, um, you know, and, uh. And that's. That's how he. That's how it started. And then obviously we use the Future Infrastructure Group as the, you know, the industry body that has been spearheaded. So, I mean, Mari, Kirsten Watson, Karla, I think there's many more. And obviously, um, John Allen, I think those, Those were the. That was the core group. Uh, and then obviously the FIG embraced this. So now it's a whole initiative for fig. But, you know, at the very beginning it was, I mean, that podcast where we had a panel, actually. Yes, it was a panel. It was with Kirsten, uh, John, Marty, there was another lady that works with Kirsten. Her name escapes me. But yeah, that was, that was the uh, you know, how do we, how do we, you know, acknowledge the problem, which is, you know, a lack of training for. Because, because the concept is, you know, you have a lot of project managers, but a project manager is not a program manager and a project is different than a program. And I think the uh, the example that we always use, and Matti says this all the time, you know, just because you can fly a propeller plane, a uh, two seater propeller plane, doesn't mean you can, you can fly a Boeing 747 or you know, it's much more complex, right? So you know, we have a lot of pilots that can fly the two seater. And then what we do, we take that pilot and put it in a Boeing and say go fly. Right? And then, and then when I was surprised if sometimes that plane crashes.
EVGENIA: And for someone like me who, you know, I, I've worked with a lot of project leaders and project directors. I've stepped into that role to a certain degree as the um, you know, as a bid director. And I can attest to that, that, that that's a bit of an uncharted career path, especially for someone stepping into that role in a sense. I'll explain what I mean. I uncharted because there's a certain job trajectory that leads to a project director and typically it starts from project management. And before that it typically, a lot of the times it starts from, you know, you're an engineer, you slowly progress, um, you get engineering background and then you progress into more complicated and bigger projects. And then you know, you end up working on a big project or you're a construction manager, construction director who's also kind of moving, moving down that path. Occasionally you would have somebody with like commercial background, uh, or business background in that role. But that's more rare. The gap that I started seeing, and this is I think just me reiterating what you're trying to say is that you get highly qualified and highly trained project directors when they arrive to that level, but they've never had the business acumen, they've never had the leadership proper leadership training that most corporate level people would have. For example, if you were in the corporate career path, you would probably be getting certain training around, you know, how to navigate the big corporation, how to work, leadership coaching with projects. When you're on site, when you're on the project site, there's typically less education that comes with a job. And I think that's Also the gap that were recognized in addition to I think findings of some of the studies and reports that were done on why major projects are not successful in terms of, you know, cost and schedule.
RICCARDO: So one correction, I think you get education on all the projects, you know, but it's a different type of. And that's why the education that you're getting on a small project, you become, you know, if you worked on medium sized projects and large but not mega project, you're building a set of skills around those projects. So then you become really, really good at managing up to large projects. Once you make the shift to major projects or mega projects, that's where that training is not, is only partially relevant. And that's the gap, right? It's not that you don't get it uh, when you're working, but it's not complete because when you're talking about mega project and people that listen to me regularly, they're probably bored or hearing this story. But like I'm going to say again, like when you dealing with megaproject, you're dealing with complex systems and you're dealing with, you're no longer managing, you know, a small group of people. You now like the people factors becomes much more relevant and bigger. So in small project, medium sized project, you got your subs, you got your partners and you can sort of manage those relation in a certain way. When you go to mega project, the interaction, the interdependencies are uh, so much more accentuated that you need a completely different set of skills, right? And so yes, your leadership becomes more important because you know, you have to manage by influence. You have to lead by influence. You know, on a small project you can probably still bang your hand on the table and say I want this. And then the subs, or like you key sub and work with you on every project, it's like, okay, I'll do it. But you know, the type of relations are very different and so you need a different set of skills to manage those relations. And you don't hone those skills. You uh, hone them for major, for large project, but you don't have that. And so uh, unless you always worked on mega projects. So if you started your career measure project, mega project and you came through that, then you probably had the right training. But that's really difficult, right? Especially for construction company, engineering company, you always work on a variety of small and large and you know, everybody wants to work on the mega, right? You remember, right? You know, the bigger the project, the more you want to be on that one. Right. But then you have a lot of people who get rewarded. This is happening in the corporate world as well. You know, you did very well on the large projects. And you go, okay, now you go. And you did so well, you're going to go lead that. But it's different. It's the same reason why, you know, when you're promoting good individual performer and say, okay, you were a really good individual performer, so I'm promoting you to manager. You're now going to manage 20 people. And that's when, you know, it's been documented that that is where everything falls apart because you were really good as an individual. So now I promoted you and, uh, if I didn't check your skill set, am I actually done a disservice to you and to the company? And I think that's also what happens sometimes with individual. They move from large project to make a project. It's not just a lateral move. It's a completely different set of skills.
EVGENIA: Yeah. And to bridge that gap, uh, you could learn on the job, as most people have done to this day, or with this idea, with this program, is that you can bridge that gap, gap a lot faster by learning from tested and proven, you know, curriculum, business curriculum and leadership frameworks and based on real life experiences. Because we're getting some industry practitioners and specific examples in this program, which is awesome.
RICCARDO: Yeah. And then obviously you learn from your peers. Right. I mean, that's. And that's why when we were designing with Mari and John and everybody else, I mean, I was really pushing is like the people in the cohort, the quality of people in the court is what makes a difference. And you need to be really disciplined in the selection criteria.
EVGENIA: Yes. Yeah. So it's not for everybody. It's not like. Yeah, it's. The selection criteria is going to be important here. Well, this is a good little promo snippet into what's coming in terms in major projects leadership. And I actually, I was thinking we should probably have a few series introducing some of the faculty, because every faculty member is going to have slightly different topic that they bring to the program. The program is nine months, I think, in duration. So we can also, uh, get a little flavor for what's coming through our podcast for our listeners too, if anyone's interested in the program.
RICCARDO: So for old times sakes, Evgenia, I'm going to task you with something like we used to do when I used to work.
EVGENIA: Just like the good old times. Yes. Go ahead.
RICCARDO: We should have an episode again with Maddie, which we need to bring Matti back and maybe, maybe you, you, you, you there are uh, more current with him and like other faculties. Yeah. Uh, I think we need to advertise and you know, I think the idea was started around this podcast with this. So, so maybe we need to, now that we covered a lot of ground, we need to bring it back and advertise.
EVGENIA: And as a, a employee, I used to be, I would say I've already done that, Riccardo, this morning. Truly. We had a call this morning.
RICCARDO: Yes, I know you did. I know you did. I do get invited. Unfortunately uh, the flashes don't allow me to come. But yeah, so it'd be really good to uh, to get the listener to find out more, more about this program.
EVGENIA: Yeah. And also a bit of a shameless plug, but I'm very happy about the fact. So when I joined FIG over a year ago knowing that this was on the agenda for the Future of Infrastructure Group, I knew that we didn't really have the ah, buy in and awareness on the west coast. So we now held a number of sessions introducing this concept of an idea in Vancouver for our west coast, you know, public and private sector partners. So that's also a um, very good move to make it a national and Canadian program. So although you know, U of T is carrying this, it doesn't mean that it's just for people in Toronto. This is very, uh, very much of a national program.
RICCARDO: Yeah, I think it'd be really good to bring Mati back because the journey has been interesting and I've uh, been as I said, lately I've not been able to participate. But you know, we had trips to Ottawa, we spoke to ministers and we, you know, we, we did quite a bit of work.
EVGENIA: Hm. Bring Marty back. Okay. That's awesome. Articulates well, you know, the intent behind it. Thank you.
RICCARDO: I'm so glad I, yeah, I do see the invites and I'm glad it's progressing well.
EVGENIA: Yeah, no, it's, it's good, it's, it's funny how I personally, on a personal note and a personal level, I kind of feel very. It's been a full circle for me. Before I joined my recent job over a year ago, I was well aware of what Future of Infrastructure Group was doing and I was following closely and I started following a podcast and then when I started my new career journey with uh, my current work, just figured my way to, to be kind of our company rep around the table so that I have this opportunity to also help facilitate these conversations. So go for what you Want.
RICCARDO: Yeah. So uh, tell us more about your involvement in Future Infrastructure. Tell us more about Future Infrastructure Group as well. What is that?
EVGENIA: Well, Future of Infrastructure Group. So this is a Canadian think tank that was started I don't know how many, how many years ago exactly? I would say over eight years ago.
RICCARDO: Pre Covid. Pre Covid.
EVGENIA: Pre Covid. With the idea that this group would bring together public and private sector. Now let's draw a separation and a difference. This is not for the public eye. This is very much. Let's get together with the right people at the very senior level to talk about very relevant problems that we all experience. But we can't really share publicly because we're living them on our contracts right now. So it's not something that you would discuss at a podium at an event and see how we can shape it and change it. And fig. Is this essentially vessel a neutral ground for public sector organizations and for public sector uh, private sector organizations to come together and really share again, not for audience, not for media, what's truly working and isn't. And can we, can we change it?
RICCARDO: Yeah. And I feel if I remember correctly, I mean this, I mean this is uh. Yeah. 2017, 2018 probably. And I, I remember it was Martin Stickland. Strickland. There was a few. Two people that sort of came up with this. I remember Martin, John Allen and then there were others that were spearheading this.
EVGENIA: Mhm. I mean I think RCO was part of the founding circle as well. Olivia McCagus.
RICCARDO: Olivia, yes, yes. Yeah. She was part of uh, the initial group. And I think there was a uh. There was a sentiment that you know, I think the industry representative of the represent. There were. The industry was represented at the C2P3. Right. And I think, I think there was uh. There was a feeling that maybe there was not the right channel to have this conversation. And I like how you describe it as a think tank. I always said advocacy group. I think think tank is more appropriate because it's, you know if we then look what that think tank has produced. I mean it's produced a lot of report. Right. I think the one that I remember was there was one, you know, back in the day when uh, Utilities risk was a big problem. Like I remember producing that and a risk Register report. Then there was the one last year, m even been this year about the digital platforms and digital twins and obviously the major, major Project Leadership Academy was another one and I'm sure there were important, many other that I'm forgetting.
EVGENIA: Yeah, Major Projects Leaders Survey which is, I think a reoccurring survey that where we get our data from for, for the think tank as well to justify some of the initiatives. Yeah, no, it's been, it's been really interesting. You know, what comes to mind as we're uh, talking about podcast influence audience conferences, these more, you know, niche think tanks. There's this balance between how and who gets to really make a difference. And what I'm trying to say is that although we're recording this for audience, we're kind of, you know, have this ability to connect the right people behind doors in a good sense that then kind of run with certain ideas or figure out a solution to certain problem, which is often not possible at a public, in a public setting like the, again, conferences where we try so hard to solve all the problems a lot of the times. So this kind of drives me down to the idea of like, are we changing the way we, you know, create these narratives and solutions in terms of like big industry trends and big industry problems that we're trying to solve? Any thoughts on that? You know, do you know what I'm trying to get like this, this balance between publicly facing information and communication versus how we're actually tackling it.
RICCARDO: You know, uh, you know, let's be honest though. I mean even, even fig, it's really supported by corporate sponsors. Right. So I think the benefit of FIG is that as you said, it's a think tank and everything, all the thinking happens behind closed doors. And you uh, do have public sectors and private sector people coming together behind closed doors. And I think that's the power at uh, a conference. You're public, so what you can say and discuss is limited. So this is, I think in hindsight, I mean it was really good from Olivia and Martin to kickstart this because it was needed, I guess. You know, the C2P3 would have agendas and you know, once a year you get a lot of people in a room for a couple of days and topics get discussed. But then there wasn't a lot happening either side of the conference. I think there was a little bit of work being done, but I think FIG really turbocharged the amount of ground that can be covered by uh, by the initiative and really tackled around, around the year. Right, Tackled the topic around a year. I think that was the big difference. And then, you know, C2P3 is a great point in time where, uh, people converge and ideas converge, but you didn't have the year round conversations.
EVGENIA: Yeah, that's true. That's um, that's a big part of it. And yeah, sometimes the smaller audience is more impactful than a, uh, larger crowd. That's something that I'm thinking a lot these days, too. You know, I work in business development, client relationship management. I'm not a fan of big networking settings. Something again, realized after trying to learn to like it. And it's something that I. I think about often. Like, how do we change? How do I not we. I like, what new ideas can we. What new channels, forums, settings can we use to bring people together, but at a smaller scale to facilitate the true connections and maybe more honest. And honest conversations, basically. And relationships.
RICCARDO: Yeah. So I guess, uh, we are making a difference.
EVGENIA: I guess we are. But you and I are both suffering from this syndrome that we've identified early on, so I don't think we're going to put a badge of honor. But yes, I think every conversation counts. And, uh, it's a start to something always. And, you know, I think we've. You've proven more so and your guests have proven that a lot of the times it's just starting a conversation and with the right people, you know, validating that conversation, that usually results in some sort of action. So. Good for us.
RICCARDO: Yes. Okay. I think, um, I mean, this could be an episode.
EVGENIA: Think it might be. Yeah, we figured that. What we could talk about. No, I think that's good. Yeah, I don't. I don't think we need to talk about anything else.
RICCARDO: So few action items. Having the audience to call in and to let us know if there are topics or that you want us to cover or if, um. I mean, if you make it this far, you. If you want to be on the podcast, I mean, that, that, that door is always open. I don't think. I never, never said no to somebody to come on the podcast. So that door is open. Reach out and then homework, uh, for you. Afghan. Yeah. Bring back money. Let's have a. Let's have a major Project Leadership Academy episode and let's have a fig episode actually. And, uh, let's bring that gang together.
EVGENIA: Yeah. Yeah. That's great ideas. We have something. Some ideas for the fall as we also come out of the summer season, which has been, you know, a little bit less recordings, at least on my end. Um, but yeah, it's gonna pick up again in the fall and some interesting guests I think are still, uh, we already have booked, so I'm looking forward to those conversations.
RICCARDO: Okay. Till next time.
EVGENIA: Till next time. Thanks for listening. That's it for this episode of Navigating Major Programs. If you enjoyed the conversation, please follow the show and consider leaving a review. To continue elevating the conversation, join us on the navigating major programs LinkedIn page. I'm Evgenia Jilina um, alongside Riccardo Cosentino and Shormila Chatterjee. Thank you for listening.